I Am Pagan

For the pur­pos­es of iden­ti­fi­ca­tion, due to no longer refer­ring to myself as Chris­t­ian, you may refer to me as a pagan (def­i­n­i­tion 3.b at Answers.com, if you’re curi­ous as to what I mean by that). I can’t real­ly give you any specifics at the moment because I don’t have them to give. Have a nice day!

34 thoughts on “I Am Pagan”

  1. Your repet­i­tive post­ings on polyg­y­ny despite the fact that it was obvi­ous­ly a stum­bling block for many (par­tic­u­lar­ly women) were the first clue for me and many oth­ers that you were head­ed in the wrong direction.
    You seemed to be more con­cerned with your view of “cor­rect­ness” of inter­pre­ta­tion of Scrip­ture than you were about the big pic­ture — and you were los­ing the for­est for the “trees” of Christianity.
    Any man who exhib­it­ed the amount of fas­ci­na­tion that you did regard­ing polyg­y­ny is hav­ing dif­fi­cul­ties with his mar­i­tal com­mit­ment, whether you want to acknowl­edge it or not. Deny it all you like.
    So where are all your patri­ar­chal polyg­y­nous friends dur­ing your “dark moment of the soul” ?
    As far as your male “Chris­t­ian” polyg­y­nist friends are con­cerned, they real­ly don’t care if you believe in Jesus or not — they are more con­cerned that you believe it is OK for them to have mul­ti­ple concubines.

  2. Re: polyg­y­ny. It’s bib­li­cal, I promise you that much. There was­n’t much ques­tion of it being bib­li­cal either, until the past few hun­dred years. Polyg­y­ny is eas­i­ly defen­si­ble via the Scrip­tures, yet it’s wide­spread con­dem­na­tion is just one of the sev­er­al evi­dences I’ve noticed that Chris­tian­i­ty does­n’t care much at all what the Bible actu­al­ly says if it does­n’t sup­port their cur­rent traditions.

    I haven’t called upon any friends in this “dark moment,” save for one (oh, you’d love her…), and I only have got­ten to know a very few oth­ers who defend polyg­y­ny (all via the Inter­net, long range).

    Your last para­graph is a laugh­able judg­ment of motives that, I’m rea­son­ably sure, is God’s turf, but hey, there ya go. Nobody in the Scrip­tures ever judged the motives of Lamech, Moses, David, Solomon, or Abra­ham for hav­ing mul­ti­ple wives, but you (like most mod­ern Chris­tians) like to think you’ve picked up on some­thing that the bib­li­cal writ­ers seem to have com­plete­ly missed: polyg­y­ny is a sin.

    That’d be news to them, I assure you. ;)

  3. A “laugh­able judg­ment” — not at all.
    I am look­ing at the MOTIVATIONS of those like you who choose to jus­ti­fy it — and their MOTIVATION is unsa­vory, as is yours.
    I will con­tin­ue to pray for you.

  4. Rick, I have no desire to enter into a debate with you, but I would like to share a few obser­va­tions with you and I will go on my way. 

    Frankly, I just can’t fath­om how you can take nine years of your life as a Chris­t­ian and flush it down the toi­let. That is essen­tial­ly what you have done. Why? Well, you had men­tioned three key things: 1. Because you did­n’t feel good being a Chris­t­ian. 2. When you were a Chris­t­ian, sup­pos­ed­ly nobody would lis­ten to you. 3. You don’t think the God of the Bible cares about your creativity.

    Do you notice the pro­nouns? It’s all about you.

    Now, let’s address a few things. The issue con­cern­ing your feel­ings does not prove Chris­tian­i­ty to be false; rather, it sim­ply reveals how you felt as a Chris­t­ian. Of course, that leads me to think that you weren’t think­ing right about the infor­ma­tion that you were access­ing. In oth­er words, you did­n’t have the cor­rect under­stand­ing of the gospel; for if you did you would­n’t have left it. And you did imply that you debat­ed a lot, which leads me to believe that you were not using the Bible for its intend­ed pur­pose. It is no won­der, then, that you felt the way you did. 

    Of course, you can argue that you feel bet­ter now than you ever did before, but that still does­n’t prove that you are bet­ter off with­out Jesus. In 1Thessalonians 5:2–3 we can see that there will come a time when peo­ple will feel good about not know­ing God, but sud­den destruc­tion will come upon them because they have reject­ed Him. Even in Matthew 7:22 we can see that peo­ple will feel very strong­ly that they knew Jesus, but they real­ly don’t know Him. This proves that feel­ings can’t always be trust­ed. In fact, if you know much about psy­chol­o­gy then you would under­stand that feel­ings are not always a reli­able source of truth.

    As for words falling on deaf ears, the Bible makes it very clear that there will be a group of peo­ple who won’t lis­ten; in many cas­es they will be peo­ple who pro­fess to be Chris­tians (Matthew 7:21–23; 2Timothy 4:3–4).

    It is to be expect­ed, then, that peo­ple won’t lis­ten. But just because peo­ple don’t accept what we are say­ing when we say it that does­n’t mean they aren’t lis­ten­ing or that they nev­er will lis­ten. Remem­ber, our part in shar­ing the gospel is to plant seeds, not to make them grow. 

    As for the issue of God not want­i­ng peo­ple to be cre­ative, I already addressed that in anoth­er post. Gen­e­sis 2:19–20 very clear­ly shows that you are wrong about that.

    Oh, and just because God allowed men of the Bible to have mul­ti­ple wives that does­n’t mean he approves of the prac­tice of hav­ing mul­ti­ple wives. Deuteron­o­my 17:17 very clear­ly shows that God does­n’t want this type of thing to be, and even Paul say­ing that an elder should be the hus­band of one wife makes it clear that it is not God’s will for men to have mul­ti­ple wives (1Timothy 3:2). God’s allowance does not equal God’s approval.

    Rick, I had a dream about you last night and it was revealed to me that you are under the pow­er of a dark influ­ence. In oth­er words, in my dream you were pos­sessed. It is very strong pres­ence, but it can be over­come. I encour­age you to con­tact a pas­tor who is strong in the Lord to help you deal with it personally.

  5. Chate­laine, it’s a laugh­able judg­ment because you have no way of know­ing my moti­va­tions… or any­one else’s, real­ly, unless you ask them about them. You’ve nev­er asked me my moti­va­tions for defend­ing polyg­y­ny, and if you were to do so, I would tell you it is because polyg­y­ny is a bib­li­cal prac­tice, and men like Abra­ham, Moses, and David do not deserve to have their names besmirched for what the mod­ern Chris­tians believe is a sin… when there real­ly is no sin happening.

  6. Chris, while I appre­ci­ate your con­cern, using the Bible to try to sway me pre­sup­pos­es that I accept the Bible as an author­i­ty. At this point, it’s no more author­i­ta­tive to me than the Book of Mor­mon or the Left Behind series. While I’ve no doubt what­so­ev­er that there is truth to be found in the Bible, there is truth to be found every­where for those will­ing to see it.

    I still dis­agree with your han­dling re: polyg­y­ny, though. The Law states that kings may not have many wives, but it does­n’t say any­thing about two, a few, or sev­er­al. How many is “many” any­way? Do you also affirm that a king may only have one horse (from the same pas­sage)? Does not this law direct­ed toward kings affirm that polyg­y­ny was a prac­tice among the “com­mon folk”? And if so, why is the restric­tion placed only upon kings?

    Like­wise, why for­bid polyg­y­ny for elders… but not for every­one? Also, there is a trans­la­tion­al issue with the pas­sage in ques­tion for church elders; the pas­sage could just as valid­ly be trans­lat­ed that an elder must be the hus­band of his first wife.

    … Again, I appre­ci­ate the con­cern, but the only way I’m going to believe is if God reach­es down & makes me. I can­not make myself believe unto sal­va­tion… The Bible says it is an act of God, sep­a­rate from the will of man.

    So what­ev­er I choose to believe or do now… if God wants me to be a Chris­t­ian, he knows where to find me.

  7. “The Law states that kings may not have many wives, but it doesn’t say any­thing about two, a few, or sev­er­al. How many is “many” anyway?”

    “Like­wise, why for­bid polyg­y­ny for elders… but not for everyone?” 

    Rick, it is impor­tant to note that Paul was very famil­iar with the Law. So, it is not hard to imag­ine that when he used the expres­sion “the hus­band of one wife” in ref­er­ence to what con­sti­tut­ed a qual­i­fi­ca­tion for an elder, he like­ly had Deuteron­o­my 17:17 in mind. Remem­ber, like kings, elders are lead­ers. Of course, they don’t have the author­i­ty of a king, but they are lead­ers nonetheless. 

    Hav­ing said that, what do peo­ple tend to do in the pres­ence of lead­ers? They fol­low their exam­ple. So, just because God only spoke of kings in this way that does­n’t mean the rule did­n’t apply to the peo­ple who were sub­ject to the author­i­ty of the king. In oth­er words, it was implied that the rule also applied to the peo­ple in general. 

    Why would God appoint some­one to lead His peo­ple if he did­n’t want the peo­ple to fol­low the exam­ple of their leader? Just as the king was expect­ed to sub­ject him­self to the author­i­ty of God’s will, so also were the peo­ple (those who were sub­ject to the king) expect­ed to do the same. Thus fol­low­ing the exam­ple of the king or their leader.

    “Also, there is a trans­la­tion­al issue with the pas­sage in ques­tion for church elders; the pas­sage could just as valid­ly be trans­lat­ed that an elder must be the hus­band of his first wife.”

    “first wife” could be seen as an idiomat­ic expres­sion denot­ing the idea of com­mit­ment to one woman, as in an elder is not one who would divorce a woman for anoth­er. Jesus made it very clear that a man should not divorce his wife (Matthew 5:31–32). Hence the expres­sion of “first wife” does not sup­port the idea that it is law­ful to have mul­ti­ple wives, but makes more sense to view it with­in the con­text of a man being com­mit­ted to one woman. So there real­ly is no prob­lem in trans­la­tion; rather, it is one of inter­pre­ta­tion, in which case you would not be inter­pret­ing the expres­sion “first wife” correctly. 

    “Do you also affirm that a king may only have one horse (from the same passage)?”

    There is a qual­i­fi­er here: “But he shall not mul­ti­ply hors­es to him­self, nor cause the peo­ple to return to Egypt, to the end that he should mul­ti­ply hors­es: foras­much as the LORD hath said unto you, Ye shall hence­forth return no more that way.” — Deuteron­o­my 17:16 KJV 

    If you were in a place where you had all the resources that you need­ed to do the will of God then why would you desire to go else­where? God’s peo­ple were under His pro­tec­tion; they did­n’t need to look to Egypt for sur­vival. When God led His peo­ple out of Egypt, He did­n’t do it to give them a vaca­tion, but to keep them out of Egypt per­ma­nent­ly. Hence it was­n’t nec­es­sary to have many horses.

    1. Peo­ple “tend to fol­low the exam­ple of their lead­ers” is your argu­ment? It’s not a very good one… very few Chris­tians live as trav­el­ing, unmar­ried vagabonds, liv­ing off of the good­will of oth­ers. You know, like their leader… Jesus. And you’ll right­ful­ly say that Chris­tians aren’t required to fol­low those par­tic­u­lar traits, and so I would point out that nowhere are “lay” Chris­tians required to fol­low suit regard­ing the mar­i­tal guide­lines of rulers or elders. Paul requires elders to be mar­ried with chil­dren, for exam­ple, but else­where points out how much more inti­mate a per­son­’s rela­tion­ship with God may be should they choose to remain single.

  8. Rick, it should not be shock­ing to you that peo­ple would fol­low those whom they look up to. But you seem to be very bit­ter right now, and you are not see­ing things as clear­ly as you ought to. It’s not about pre­sent­ing the best argu­ments; it’s about being hon­est with your­self, and more impor­tant­ly, being hon­est with God. Frankly, I don’t believe you are being hon­est with either one.

  9. There you go, tak­ing the route oth­ers already have: judg­ing my motives or my heart or my own hon­esty… with­out any basis upon which to do so. I can promise you I’m being more hon­est with myself now than I have been in some time.

    Your argu­ments are based upon assump­tions, when it comes to try­ing to rel­e­gate polyg­y­ny to the cat­e­go­ry of “sin.” But assump­tions don’t work so far; the sys­tem is sup­posed to be “sola Scrip­tura,” is it not? There are no bib­li­cal com­mands against polyg­y­ny, but polyg­y­ny is in fact sim­ply tak­en for grant­ed. On that sub­ject, it’s you & the major­i­ty of oth­ers in the church­es who are not see­ing clearly.

  10. Rick, how can you say those who are in the Church are not see­ing clear­ly when you have flushed nine years of being a Chris­t­ian down the toi­let? Do you expect us all to fol­low in your steps? Would that seem rea­son­able to you? 

    And I don’t think it is fair for you to accuse me of judg­ing your heart. My judg­ment is not my own; it is based on the Word of God. And your actions have very clear­ly revealed that you oppose the Word of God. And judg­ing by the Word of God, you are not being hon­est with your­self, nor are you being hon­est with God. 

    You don’t have to accept what I am say­ing as fact if you don’t want to, but when Jesus returns you will have no choice but to bend your knees in awe of His pres­ence. All of the argu­men­ta­tion against Him will be silenced at that point. Hope­ful­ly you will return to Him before that happens.

    By the way, I nev­er said that it is a sin to have mul­ti­ple wives. Yet, I don’t believe that it is accord­ing to God’s will for a man to have more than one wife, and I already gave my rea­sons for that.

  11. Your rea­sons don’t hold up, as I’ve already shown. And if it’s against God’s will, that kin­da makes it wrong, whether you want to call it a sin or not.

    You’ve still also not explained why I’m being dis­hon­est with myself. Do I have to agree with you to be hon­est with myself? ‘Cause that does­n’t make any sense to me.

    And if Jesus wants to have words with me regard­ing my unbe­lief, at least I’ll be com­fort­ed by the fact that I can’t choose to believe; belief is some­thing, accord­ing to the Bible, that is pret­ty much thrust on those who are con­vert­ed. It’s sup­pos­ed­ly a mir­a­cle. How can you judge me? I can’t make the mir­a­cle. Talk to God about it. If I’m lost, appar­ent­ly that’s because He made me to show off his wrath.

    That’s if you stick to the Bible, any­way. Emo­tion­al calls to repen­tance aren’t going to get very far with me. I’m kin­da numb to that sort of manip­u­la­tion… have been for half a decade or more, ever since com­ing out of a very fun­da­men­tal, con­ser­v­a­tive church.

  12. Rick, you are being dis­hon­est with your­self in that you deny your need for Jesus, who is the only way to the Father. There is no sal­va­tion out­side of Him.

    And if we could­n’t choose to believe in Him then there would be no need for that word; that is, the word ‘belief’ would­n’t make any sense. Your prob­lem is that you have been deceived into believ­ing a false teach­ing on the doc­trine of elec­tion. It is no won­der, then, that you feel the way you do; your con­cept of the gospel is false. It is not one of love, but tyranny. 

    Again, I encour­age you to watch the videos that I rec­om­mend­ed. Here’s the link: http://www.discoveries08.org/schedule

    I hope that you will come to see the truth as it is in Jesus.

  13. Curi­ous… when I did believe in Jesus & teach my under­stand­ing of elec­tion… where were you then? If it was wrong, then I was just as wrong then as now.

    Also, no, I’m still not being dis­hon­est with myself. That would require me being a believ­er but con­vinc­ing myself that I’m not, which is not what’s hap­pen­ing. I’m open­ly defy­ing the Bible. Just say it. It’s not being dis­hon­est with myself… It’s being hon­est with myself & the world that I no longer find the Bible to accu­rate­ly describe reality.

  14. Rick:

    just to add my two cents, I think you’re being very hon­est right now, which is some­thing, con­sid­er­ing there’s I’m sure many hid­ing in church­es today unsaved, and head­ing for a lost eter­ni­ty that is liv­ing a lie and plan to until the day they die. 

    Sec­ond­ly I’m not sure what you mean by the fact that the Bible isn’t rep­re­sent­ing real­i­ty, beca­sue from my under­stand­ing of scrip­ture, you are liv­ing the real­i­ty it describes. 

    Also you seem to give the indi­ca­tion that there’s some­thing dull about what bil­lions have held to before. I’m inter­est­ed in you find­ing some­thing to hold to, that no one has thought up before. The dif­fer­ence is, and you know it, is that Jesus Christ is the only way.

    Keep being hon­est with your­self though, it’s refresh­ing to say, I just hope and pray that your hon­esty will con­tin­ue to lead you to the real­iza­tion, that if you nev­er had the Sav­iour, then now’s a good time to trust Him.

  15. I nev­er said it was dull; it was implied that being “post-mod­ern,” what­ev­er that is, is uno­rig­i­nal & uncre­ative. I mere­ly point­ed out that there’s not exact­ly any­thing cre­ative & orig­i­nal about being a Chris­t­ian either.

    I could have just as eas­i­ly point­ed out that if cre­ativ­i­ty & orig­i­nal­i­ty were the mea­sure of a valid belief sys­tem, then he who wor­ships a sen­tient note­book where­in the tales of a mighty earth­worm are con­tin­u­al­ly writ­ten is doing bet­ter than all of us. (Although the moment some­one actu­al­ly believes that, the next per­son will have to be cre­ative & orig­i­nal all over again.)

  16. This whole con­ver­sa­tion is just fun­ny to me, because you are being total­ly and com­plete­ly hon­est, which is rare and valu­able and some­thing Jesus taught… And you have your own idea about how you want to live your life right now. 

    I must con­grat­u­late you on your brav­ery to state your right to be and live how­ev­er you choose. Was­n’t that God’s plan anyway? :) 

    Where ever and how ever you live is your busi­ness, and though it does effect those around you, it is ulti­mat­ly your life and up to you. I hope you don’t get bul­lied into some­one else’s idea of what your life is sup­posed to look like. Which is what most of those mak­ing com­ments here were doing. Maybe there is a big­ger pic­ture they don’t see, or maybe they do, but we all need to be con­sid­er­ate and respect­ful of oth­ers beliefs. That’s what our coun­try was based on.

    My sus­pi­cion is that those who are bul­ly­ing you here have a deep seat­ed fear that their choice is wrong, or per­haps that you will reject them, or per­haps that you will try to force them to see it your way so they try to get there first. Regard­less, kudos for think­ing for your­self and fol­low­ing your own path in life. yay!!!! :)

  17. Ele­na’s right. Fear is a clear under­cur­rent in the mes­sages of the believers. 

    Fear of what? Hard to say for sure, but I sus­pect it’s a fear of know­ing … on some repressed lev­el … they’re wast­ing their lives believ­ing in and embrac­ing some­thing that sim­ply makes no sense. The doc­trines they hold dear to their hearts are the prod­ucts of ancient (in human, not evo­lu­tion­ary terms) minds that sim­ply had no way to explain the world around them oth­er than to tell the elab­o­rate sto­ries memo­ri­al­ized in reli­gious texts. We know bet­ter now. We know thun­der isn’t caused by “angels bowl­ing”. We know the world isn’t flat. We know evo­lu­tion alone gave rise to us and every­thing else.

    To reject the great body of knowl­edge we have at our com­mand in the mod­ern world in favor of the retain­ing, embrac­ing old world beliefs is indeed a pre­car­i­ous posi­tion to take.

    I’d be fear­ful too if I held those beliefs.

  18. The beau­ty of being a pagan — even a mod­er­ate­ly monothe­is­tic pagan — is that one core pre­cept is tol­er­ance… I have no prob­lem if peo­ple want to be Chris­t­ian, or any­thing else for that mat­ter. I no longer have fear as a moti­va­tion of any kind — for belief or for bul­ly­ing oth­ers into belief.

    And that’s a great feeling.

  19. To ques­tion mod­ern Chris­tian­i­ty is entire­ly appro­pri­ate. I thought myself quite Chris­t­ian until I began to chal­lenge my views of ‘Chris­tian­i­ty’ and found them to be noth­ing like Christs. Christ was a rebel of sane and main-stream reli­gion and I am sure that Jesus would not approve of how I want Chris­tian­i­ty to look and feel. I have been very close to the same place before and am pray­ing for you. Cheers.

  20. Upon re-read­ing this thread it strikes me a.) how fear is per­pet­u­at­ed as being an ele­ment of Chris­t­ian adher­ence, and b.) how liv­ing out­side of ‘fear’ is laud­ed as being the point of freedom. 

    I have been saved a long time, and I am not afraid of God. I have nev­er been held in bondage by a dread of God. In fact, the gospel has deliv­ered me from fear. I was a sin­ner and I no longer need to dread the right­eous judg­ment of God- and not only do I not have to wor­ry about my sin, but God Him­self helps me to be Holy. God is for me, not against me (Romans 8). This is the out­come of justification. 

    At the same time, fear for the unbe­liev­er is very appro­pri­ate if one believes in a God who is omnipo­tent, omni-pow­er­ful and exceed­ing­ly right­eous. It is a char­ac­ter­is­tic of man in his nat­ur­al sin­ful state to have no fear of God as Romans 3 clear­ly teach­es that ‘they have no fear of God’. I am not advo­cat­ing fear-mon­ger­ing as a tac­tic for evan­ge­lism but as Hebrews teach­es it is a fear­ful thing to fall into the hands of a liv­ing God, because God is a con­sum­ing fire.

  21. Hi Rick,

    Wow! I com­mend your brave soul.

    Well, hence my two ‑pence worth:

    I (appar­ent­ly like you), searched for truth. I was ruth­less­ly hun­gry for it. Along the way, I found that I could debate Chris­tians under the table, because they just did not get it. They had not been where I had been. They had not thought things through as I had. They had not faced the real issues as hon­est­ly as I had. Etc. Etc.

    I turned my back on my roots; look­ing for the greater truth, until 20 plus years lat­er, I found myself back at the begin­ning. The dif­fer­ence being that I real­ized that it is not about the argu­ments or debates, but about the real­i­ty of gen­uine­ly know­ing God and His Holy Spir­it, with­out which, the argu­ments and debates are mean­ing­less. I had to give up my ‘invest­ment’ in my ideas, and my pur­suit of them, to find what had been under my nose all along. I hope this helps. 

    Stay brave. Stay hon­est. Keep looking.

  22. Hi Rick,

    “The beau­ty of being a pagan — even a mod­er­ate­ly monothe­is­tic pagan — is that one core pre­cept is tol­er­ance… I have no prob­lem if peo­ple want to be Chris­t­ian, or any­thing else for that mat­ter. I no longer have fear as a moti­va­tion of any kind — for belief or for bul­ly­ing oth­ers into belief.…And that’s a great feeling.”

    Not to be intol­er­ant, but that’s a con­fused and emp­ty phi­los­o­phy. If there is truth that matters–arguably there is–then we should WANT oth­ers to know about it.

    Tol­er­ance is one thing. I tol­er­ate oth­ers and their beliefs. But it’s some­thing else alto­geth­er to not want to con­vey truth to oth­ers if you have found it, or present their errors to them if those errors pose a danger.

    If you tried to “bul­ly” peo­ple into believ­ing Chris­tian­i­ty, then you were cer­tain­ly off the mark. As I men­tioned in anoth­er mes­sage, Calvin­ism is like­ly the source of your “bul­ly­ing” and your despair of Chris­tian­i­ty. It’s a wicked coun­ter­feit of the plain real­i­ty found in Scripture.

    Fear isn’t a Chris­tian’s moti­va­tion, if they know Scrip­ture. Love is. I CARE about what hap­pens to oth­ers. I care about what hap­pens to you, Rick.

    Jesus was not intol­er­ant. He nev­er built up armies around Him­self to “kill the infi­del”. He loved peo­ple and taught them, and they learned the truth. God is long-suf­fer­ing and just.

    I just want to sug­gest one thing for your con­sid­er­a­tion: You’ve spent nine years pur­su­ing a false ver­sion of Chris­tian­i­ty, one that has led you AWAY from God and into a false and emp­ty “pagan” world­view devoid of any real­is­tic hope or con­tent. You nev­er knew God or you would nev­er have turned away. Isn’t it worth con­sid­er­ing that you have been DECEIVED out of fol­low­ing the truth, into a pagan­ism with no dis­cernible truth­ful­ness and false hap­pi­ness? Isn’t it worth explor­ing the Chris­tian­i­ty that you nev­er real­ly knew?

    You are a log­i­cal and ver­bal per­son. I know you have con­sid­ered all these things very deeply. Please con­sid­er, though, that there may be oth­ers that have con­sid­ered them more ful­ly than you have. You’re still a young guy. I’m not too many years old­er, but I’ve been a Chris­t­ian for 35 years, many of which have been spent in intense study of Sci­ence, Log­ic, Phi­los­o­phy, and Christianity.

    I believe that if you are will­ing to think and con­sid­er things with me, that you will learn many things that you have missed, which have tak­en you down the wrong path at this time. Your nine years need­n’t have been wast­ed. You have learned many good things and I think it’s pos­si­ble to show you log­i­cal­ly and clear­ly where your search for truth went off the tracks.

    Let me know if you are will­ing. I’m not just a sheep that accepts what he’s been taught. Like you, I’m a free­think­ing indi­vid­ual. But I also believe that there is def­i­nite truth out there, based upon the over­whelm­ing evi­dence. If you would like to just talk freely and dis­cuss things, I’d like to spend the time with you.

  23. Ulti­mate­ly, if you care about me, then pray to your God to save me. As Jesus said him­self, none can come to the Father unless he drags them. Else­where, it is said that sal­va­tion is of God alone, not of the will of man.

    So if he wants me to believe, I fig­ure he can make me.

    Not to be short, but that’s ulti­mate­ly what it comes down to. You can’t talk some­one into belief. Let your god act. If he’s there and I remain an unbe­liev­er, then clear­ly I was cho­sen for wrath as was Pharaoh.

  24. Oh Rick. You’ve been sold a bill of goods and believe what you’ve been told, yet fail to see the fail­ure of it.

    Sal­va­tion IS of God alone, but that does­n’t mean that only He brings one to sal­va­tion. Accept­ing sal­va­tion is a choice we make, which is also stat­ed fre­quent­ly through­out Scripture.

    God makes nobody believe. That’s a lie of Calvin­ism. God gives us the oppor­tu­ni­ty to believe. He pro­vides the way.

    I’m not say­ing that He won’t act upon peo­ple if we pray for them. He sure­ly does. But He won’t MAKE any­one believe. That would be incom­pat­i­ble both with being in His image and His love.

    Nobody can talk any­one into believ­ing. But it is pos­si­ble to low­er the false bar­ri­ers that peo­ple raise against the truth.

    You believe as you do because you feel that you have rea­soned your way to this point–is that not correct?

    You should also rec­og­nize that if you have been giv­en bad infor­ma­tion, that your chain of rea­son­ing may be incor­rect. Can you agree with that too?

    I can’t talk you into belief, but I believe that if you are willing–perhaps you are too tired or too burned out to do it–I can show you where your errors have been, by approach­ing the sub­ject from the very begin­ning. I did­n’t come to where I am by believ­ing in the Bible first. I learned of God from the evi­dence of the Uni­verse, then fol­lowed the chain of log­ic to the only place it led–Christianity.

    I’m will­ing to explore this with you. If you feel you can find errors in my chain of log­ic, I’m will­ing to hear it. But we need to be open and hon­est with each oth­er. That does­n’t mean dis­card­ing what we believe to be true, but being will­ing to recon­sid­er things in the light of bet­ter evi­dence or log­ic. I’ve con­stant­ly done that–and changed many of my beliefs–by being will­ing to learn and explore.

    I think you are or have been that kind of person–a free­thinker. If not, then I’m sor­ry I’ve both­ered you. If so, then let’s talk pri­vate­ly, by e‑mail or phone. It could be inter­est­ing, at the very least…

  25. As I men­tioned, Jesus him­self said that nobody comes to the Father unless he him­self drags said per­son. Paul con­firms this by say­ing sal­va­tion is not of the will of man and else­where that Jesus is the author & fin­ish­er of faith.

    Now, if Jesus is the author of my faith, and I have not faith… That is not my fault.

    Now, if the only way I’m com­ing to the Father is if he drags me to him, and I am not going to the Father… That is not my fault.

    Now, if sal­va­tion is God’s choice and is not some­thing I can will, and I choose not to believe… That is not my fault.

    Like­wise, if God exists and I was at any point saved, then I await Jesus to show that He is the Good Shep­herd by leav­ing the 99 to come find me.

    Bot­tom line: The bal­l’s in God’s court, should he choose to act upon it. I gave him my life for near­ly a decade and have noth­ing to show for it except the abil­i­ty to out-class most pas­tors when it comes to theology…

    I’m clos­ing com­ments on this site. I’m no longer inter­est­ed in main­tain­ing King­domGeek and am ready to move on with my life. I’m on Face­book if any­one wish­es to con­tin­ue this conversation.

  26. Rick,

    Con­tin­ue in your search of truth. I under­stand your sit­u­a­tion. For it has been my road as well. Many chris­tians do not check the source of their infor­ma­tion, ther­fore, they are mis­in­formed and do not know. Start off with the inves­ti­ga­tion that the Jesus they are refer­ring to is Greek | cau­ca­soid. The true Issa or Yoshua Ben Yosef is of African descent. This man Issa is the one who was chal­leng­ing the sys­tem by telling the Hebrew-Israelites | Jews to go back to ways of their Father, the Supreme, Self exist­ing Cre­ator of life instead of bow­ing down to the Romans. The Romans in their con­quest for pow­er used his crux­i­fic­tion as the main idea through Con­stan­ti­ne’s vision of how to con­trol the mass­es. It was sumed up lat­er at the Coun­cil of Nicaea in 325. This is where they made “GOD” three in the per­sonas of the Father, Son and Holy Spir­it. More­over, study your Kemet­ic (AEgypt­ian) Sci­ences and you will find this is sim­i­lar to Ausar(Osiris) Aset(Isis) and Heru(Horus). In 321, Con­stan­tine instruct­ed that Chris­tians and non-Chris­tians should be unit­ed in observ­ing the ven­er­a­ble day of the sun, ref­er­enc­ing the eso­teric east­ern sun-wor­ship which Aure­lian had helped intro­duce, and his coinage still car­ried the sym­bols of the sun cult until 324. Even after the pagan gods had dis­ap­peared from the coinage, Chris­t­ian sym­bols appeared only as Con­stan­ti­ne’s per­son­al attrib­ut­es: the chi rho between his hands or on his labarum, but nev­er on the coin itself.[205] Even when Con­stan­tine ded­i­cat­ed the new cap­i­tal of Con­stan­tino­ple, which became the seat of Byzan­tine Chris­tian­i­ty for a mil­len­ni­um, he did so wear­ing the Apol­lon­ian sun-rayed Dia­dem. Take this for fur­ther thought, at the end of many para­bles, pslams and scrip­tures includ­ing prayers — we all say Amen. Amen is the pseu­do­nym for the “self exist­ing one”, GOD, Heav­en­ly Father, etc. Com­po­nents of the truth are scat­tered through­out the Bible and are hid­den unless you are trained and skilled in the art of exo­teric and eso­teric knowl­edge. On the lar­er side of LIFE, per­son­al­ly, I will speak up only when it is appro­pri­ate. To take anoth­er per­sons hope away is nonethe­less a waste of time unless they are using it as a form of oppres­sion on oth­ers. We should all act as sov­er­eign indi­vid­u­als and con­duct our­selves in aco­ord with the great side wheel by which time is so com­mon­ly reck­oned. EACH ONE TEACH ONE — ONE LOVE.

  27. Con­grat­u­la­tion to you on your enlight­en­ment. So you see what I see in Catholic/Christian reli­gion. Basi­cal­ly they throw away the rules that exist in their own holy book, and I’m not talk­ing only about polygyny. 

    I sin­cere­ly hope that you find what you’re look­ing for, what­ev­er it is. God is with you.

Leave a Comment

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

Use your Gravatar-enabled email address while commenting to automatically enhance your comment with some of Gravatar's open profile data.

Comments must be made in accordance with the comment policy. This site uses Akismet to reduce spam; learn how your comment data is processed.

You may use Markdown to format your comments; additionally, these HTML tags and attributes may be used: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <s> <strike> <strong>

Rick Beckman