Well, I gotta admit, I’m a bit bored with tracking my goals. “Boast not thyself of tomorrow,” God said, and it’s hard to live every day to the fullest if I’m at the same time trying to get certain things accomplished that really don’t matter much.
However, I do want to share a bit about a book I just finished reading, Balancing the Christian Life by Dr. Charles C. Ryrie. As with everything of Ryrie’s that I’ve had the privilege to read, BCF was thorough, well researched, and very biblically sound.
He touches on subjects such as lordship salvation, repentance, speaking in tongues, the baptism of the Spirit and the filling of the Spirit, and a whole lot more, explaining from the Bible what (if any) place in our lives we ought to give such things.
Far too many are worshipping a god while claiming to be spiritual, holding up emotional experiences of gibberish in gatherings, falling unconcious, and more as evidence of spirituality. In this book you will learn that spirituality is inseparably linked to a growing, mature relationship with God through the Holy Spirit according to the truth of the Holy Bible.
The book is easy to read and should be understandable to most people who have been made a new creature via belief in Christ. I recommend it to younger Christians as well; get started on Bible truths now so you won’t get mixed up into something unbiblical later on.
Wow- implying that those who claim the gifts of tongues do not follow Christ is a huge assumption. I’m surprised of your discernment of the heart over every single follower blessed with spiritual gifts. Especially of Paul and the early church. It’s like you’ve ommited 1 Corinthians 14 entirely. Or maybe I’m just misunderstanding you. Would you care to elaborate on your research and convictions over this subject?
Notice I said “gibberish” in the church. Find me one example of that in the Bible, and you win the debate hands down. Tongues were a real language, spoken in turn by at most 3 people and never by women, and were always interpreted. I’ve seen dozens of churches on TV and have attended a few myself that claim the gift of tongues but were not at all biblical about it.
However, tongues ceased with the gifts of prophecy and the other apostolic gifts. The church needed them in its infancy, but when it matured childish things were put away. The word of God is the only testimony needed today.
Besides, if spirituality is a mature and growing relationship with God, then it probably wouldn’t be marked by the least of the spiritual gifts anyway. Desire the better gifts, says God.
Notice I said “gibberish” in the church. Find me one example of that in the Bible, and you win the debate hands down. Tongues were a real language, spoken in turn by at most 3 people and never by women, and were always interpreted. I’ve seen dozens of churches on TV and have attended a few myself that claim the gift of tongues but were not at all biblical about it.
However, tongues ceased with the gifts of prophecy and the other apostolic gifts. The church needed them in its infancy, but when it matured childish things were put away. The word of God is the only testimony needed today.
Besides, if spirituality is a mature and growing relationship with God, then it probably wouldn’t be marked by the least of the spiritual gifts anyway. Desire the better gifts, says God.
Aha, well, the bible clearly states that more than 3 people spoke in tongues. In fact it insinuates that the entire church spoke in tongues.
First off-
Jesus told the disciples to go and preach the good news he also prophesied the coming of tongues
Mark 16:17
And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues
One (clear) example of people speaking in tongues.. is in Acts 19:1-7 Where Paul meets twelve disciples of John the Baptist while travelling and learns that they have not received the Holy spirit. So he lays his hands on them and immediately they start speaking in tongues and prophesying.
Also in Acts Paul is preaching to some gentiles when:
Acts 10:45-46
The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.
If one reads into this just a little they will see that apparently, the gifts of the Holy Spirit had been prominent among the Jewish church.
Oh, and one cannot forget Pentecost, Acts 2:4 when the disciples of Jesus spoke in tongues and 3,000 repented and followed Christ.
1 Corinthian chapter 12 and 14 has Paul speaking and giving advice about administering the use of the different gifts of the Holy spirit. Obviously he wouldn’t be writing this to churches who were not speaking in tongues or prophesying.
It may sound like gibberish but its not supposed to be always understandable.
1 Corinthians 14:2
For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.
You might say that speaking in tongues should be understood, because at Pentecost people actually heard the good news in their own language. That would be called “Xenoglossia” compared to “Glossia” which would be speaking in a language just to God. A bit of a stretch but one could say that 1 Corinthians 13 has Paul metioning xenoglossia and glossia- “If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.”
tongues of men might mean “xenoglossia” and “of angels” might be “glossia”.
All things are debatable. Although I think I Corinthians 14:34 is pretty straightforward:
Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.
Your claim that speaking in tongues ceased with the gift of prophesy and other gifts, where is your support for that claim?
And your second claim that the church needed those gifts only for its infancy until the Bible came into printing is based off of the end of 1 Corinthians 13, correct?
Lets take a look at 1 Corinthians 13. The main point of the whole chapter is that Love is the ultimate virtue. Verse 8 says
“Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.”
Paul is emphasizing that Love is better than prophesying, better than speaking in tongues, better than knowledge. For there will come a day when we wont need those gifts (because they’ll be pointless), my interpretation is that the only time we wont need them is when Jesus returns and we are taken up into heaven.
Verse 9-10-11 and 12 fit with my interpretation in that when Jesus comes, imperfection in the church will cease. Right now Christians are unaware fully of Gods plan “Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.” but when Jesus returns we shall see face to face with him and will have no need for prayer even-because we’ll be with him.
There is no reference to the Bible- unless you think “when perfection comes” is referring to the Bible. Mighty big assumption.
Also, following your logic, the gifts of the Spirit ceased in demonstration in the year 1454 when the Gutenberg Bible was written. But we know that it wasn’t the exact translation plus some parts were missing which are included in our Bibles today.
Paul ends the chapter of Corinthians 13 with an emphasis on love. There is nothing better than loving God and humans around you. Keep that in mind when your dismissing the gift of tongues using 3 verses. You might say that we don’t need revelation, prophesying or tongues now that we have the Bible.
Why not? Doesn’t the church need constant building and encouraging? I believe it does.
You said “Desire the better gifts.” Immediately following this statement is “and I will show you the most excellent way.” and then he goes on to talk about Love in chapter 13. Desire the better gifts- faith hope and love.
I’m sorry that your experience with churches speaking in tongues were not biblical about it. However that does not mean it is not demonstrated correctly elsewhere. That is the same thing as saying that if someone claims to be a
christian but does not lead a Godly lifestyle, then all Christians must not lead a Godly lifestyle.
Finally, 1 Corinthians 14 says “Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy.” and verse 39 says “Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.”
Do we just ignore these verses? How can you say that the Holy Spirit cannot bestow the gifts anymore?
I had to struggle with all of this, and I decided that the evidence for the gifts of the Holy Spirit today far outweigh the evidence of it no longer existing.
There are just as many Christians around the world who speak in tongues as there are who don’t. For me to say that God can not and no longer pours out His Spirit and speaks to us and desires for us to reply in appropriate manner is much bolder and blindly made statement.
I do not believe that if you do not speak in tongues or demonstrated other gifts then you are not Christian, many churches say this and it is entirely unbased and unfounded statement.
I only argue for the possibility of its existence.
In Christ.
Peace.
~Seahorse
In short, tongues, prophecy, and special wisdom all passed away with the apostles. The church was founded upon the apostles and the apostolic sign gifts. For 1900 years, the church did not speak in tongues until some goofy people start giggling, snorting, and jumping up and down or falling flat on their backs earlier in the 1900s and someone said that was of God, and suddenly everyone’s speaking in tongues again.
Sorry, but God doesn’t work like that. The sign gifts were given to verify, which is why they were a “sign.” No tongues or prophecy gifts of today are verifable. No one’s ever really spoken in an unknown tongue, no one is predicting the future, etc. If they were, the church would be as strong and the lost would be being converted as quickly as they were back then and there wouldn’t be all the widespread apostasy among the churches.
As for the “these signs will follow them that believe” that Jesus said to the apostles, it was for the apostles only. If you do not believe that, I have some drain cleaner you could drink; God said if a believer drank poison, it will not harm him. An apostle could do it because it was theirs to claim; could you or I? Of course not.
Also, outside of the apostolic ministry in early evangelism (it was not found in later evangelism), tongues were different whan what you were claiming. God explicitely said that if anyone speaks in tongues in a church, it will be by two or at most three, there will be an interpreter, etc. So, if you go to your church, and four people speak in tongues, the tongues are gibberish and no one even wants to attempt interpretation, and 2 of the four people are women, then your “gifts of the Spirit” are a satanic counterfeit that do not agree with the word of God.
I recommend the book Signs, Wonders and Miracles by James W. Knox, which you could probably get for free if you are honestly interested in the subject and what the Bible says.
In short, tongues, prophecy, and special wisdom all passed away with the apostles. The church was founded upon the apostles and the apostolic sign gifts. For 1900 years, the church did not speak in tongues until some goofy people start giggling, snorting, and jumping up and down or falling flat on their backs earlier in the 1900s and someone said that was of God, and suddenly everyone’s speaking in tongues again.
Sorry, but God doesn’t work like that. The sign gifts were given to verify, which is why they were a “sign.” No tongues or prophecy gifts of today are verifable. No one’s ever really spoken in an unknown tongue, no one is predicting the future, etc. If they were, the church would be as strong and the lost would be being converted as quickly as they were back then and there wouldn’t be all the widespread apostasy among the churches.
As for the “these signs will follow them that believe” that Jesus said to the apostles, it was for the apostles only. If you do not believe that, I have some drain cleaner you could drink; God said if a believer drank poison, it will not harm him. An apostle could do it because it was theirs to claim; could you or I? Of course not.
Also, outside of the apostolic ministry in early evangelism (it was not found in later evangelism), tongues were different whan what you were claiming. God explicitely said that if anyone speaks in tongues in a church, it will be by two or at most three, there will be an interpreter, etc. So, if you go to your church, and four people speak in tongues, the tongues are gibberish and no one even wants to attempt interpretation, and 2 of the four people are women, then your “gifts of the Spirit” are a satanic counterfeit that do not agree with the word of God.
I recommend the book Signs, Wonders and Miracles by James W. Knox, which you could probably get for free if you are honestly interested in the subject and what the Bible says.